Sothenes' Quoted Questions

[GMpilot]

I decided to take a look at our aborted discussion from last autumn, Sothenes, where you pulled down a list of “Hard Questions” and decided this was just the thing to give fellow Christians, so they might ask those in opposition to your beliefs, or merely wavering in theirs.
It certainly looks impressive. Many of them are difficult questions which can't be answered glibly. But many more are of a rhetorical nature, and I suspect the average Christian believer can't provide adequate answers to them either.

The questions below are pulled straight from that list. Can you notice the one thing they all have in common?...

Can you explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos?

If time never had a beginning, but rather goes backwards infinitely or has gone through an infinite number of cycles, then how is it possible that we are here today?

How can something as small as a brain understand extremely complicated aspects of the universe, even though it is (supposedly) just a bunch of chemical reactions and electrical signals? But at the same time, this brain can’t create another brain like itself, so how can nature, that has no brain, create a brain?

When you look at a lot of creatures such as zebras, turtles, butterflies, bees, lady bugs, leopards, etc., you will notice amazing color patterns designed into them. Who came up with those? Does nature have a “taste” in colors , and does it know which colors go together nicely?

How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components?

How can the Second Law of Thermodynamics be reconciled with progressive, naturalistic evolutionary theory?

How do you reconcile the existence of human intelligence with naturalism and the Law of Entropy?

How come there are some things on our planet seem that they are especially designed for us? For example, the 2 most comfortable colors are blue and green , which happen to be the color of the sky and most of the nature around us. Who chose those colors to be there , before earth even existed?

Is it absolutely true that "truth is not absolute" or only relatively true that "all things are relative?"

Because life origins are not observable, verifiable, or falsifiable, how does the theory of "evolution" amount to anything more than just another faith system?

If every effect has a cause, then what or who caused the universe?

That's right: none of those questions has anything whatever to do with Christianity, God, Jesus, or the supernatural. Most of them, in fact, can be answered (or at least addressed) by evolutionary biology and physics. One or two fall into the realm of philosophy, but that may be outside this thread.
In any case, I have removed them for the following reason: the headline says

“Hard Questions To Ask Atheists, Skeptics, Secularists And Agnostics About The Christian Faith”

Since the above questions have nothing to do with the Christian faith, I will not address them. If you want to to deal with those questions...well, that can be another thread.

The following questions are borderline in that they do not apply specifically to Christianity. Therefore, they also do not meet the self-established criteria of the header.

Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers?

Have you ever wondered why thousands of intelligent scientists, living and dead, have been men and women of great faith?

Everyone knows Mount Rushmore was the result of intelligent design. Do you think the human body is the result of intelligent design?

Does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of meaning and purpose?

What do you make of all the anthropological studies indicating that even the most remote tribes show some sort of theological awareness?

How do you explain the thousands of people who have experienced heaven or hell and have come back to tell us about it?

Is there any evidence that would satisfy you and persuade you to become a believer, or are you just going to believe what you WANT to believe?

Now, I'll gladly come back to these after the Christianity-related ones have been dealt with, if you wish.
But I gotta tell ya, I was disappointed that you didn't show up anymore at the Founding Father(s) Quotes thread. History was always my favorite subject in school, and I'd been anticipating a good long multi-page thread about the alleged 'Christianity' of the Founders.

Anyway, this one could easily last into next year! Are you up for it?

(Incidentally, I did go back to the site you lifted those questions from; there were others there who'd accepted the challenge and answered the questions. I will not shirk them here.)

[Sothenes]

Originally Posted by GMpilot

Now, I'll gladly come back to these after the Christianity-related ones have been dealt with, if you wish.
But I gotta tell ya, I was disappointed that you didn't show up anymore at the Founding Father(s) Quotes thread. History was always my favorite subject in school, and I'd been anticipating a good long multi-page thread about the alleged 'Christianity' of the Founders.

Anyway, this one could easily last into next year! Are you up for it?

(Incidentally, I did go back to the site you lifted those questions from; there were others there who'd accepted the challenge and answered the questions. I will not shirk them here.)

GMpilot,

I just saw this here.

I'm currently working on responding to five pages of alleged proof-texts by a popular said "Christian" who is on the international level. I said too much but it has nothing to do with the users on this board.

I don't have time to write a lot anymore but here are two of the the other three links:

America - a Christian nation

Christ's Church Burial Ground

Sosthenes

[Sothenes]

Originally Posted by GMpilot

But I gotta tell ya, I was disappointed that you didn't show up anymore at the Founding Father(s) Quotes thread. History was always my favorite subject in school, and I'd been anticipating a good long multi-page thread about the alleged 'Christianity' of the Founders.

Anyway, this one could easily last into next year! Are you up for it?[/size]

I know the book to use but I'm low on funds. Would you be suprised if George Washington used the words "that dumb deist"? Those are fighting words today. You couldn't say it today. They went through the Apostle's Creed line by line because they were fighting the Church of England at that time.

I don't have time or desire for debate but I don't know if I posted this already. Perhaps you could explain it.

Do you know the Preamble for your state?
Be sure to read the message at the bottom!

Alabama 1901, Preamble
We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution..
Alaska 1956, Preamble We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.
Arizona 1911, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...
Arkansas 1874, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...
California 1879, Preamble We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom...
Colorado 1876, Preamble We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe...
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.
Delaware 1897, Preamble Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.
Florida 1885, Preamble We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...
Georgia 1777, Preamble We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Hawaii 1959, Preamble We , the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance ... Establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889, Preamble We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.
Illinois 1870, Preamble We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil , political and religious us liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors..
Indiana 1851, Preamble We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.
Iowa 1857, Preamble We, the People of the St ate of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings, establish this Constitution..
Kansas 1859, Preamble We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and relig ious liberties...
Louisiana 1921, Preamble We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.
Maine 1820, Preamble We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity .. An d imploring His aid and direction.
Maryland 1776, Preamble We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...
Massachusetts 1780, Preamble We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction .
Michigan 1908, Preamble le. We, the people of the State of Michigan , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.
Minnesota, 1857, Preamble We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:
Mississippi 1890, Preamble We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Al mighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.
Missouri 1845, Preamble We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness . Establish this Constitution...
Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ..
Nebraska 1875, Preamble We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom . Establish this Constitution.
Nevada 1864, Preamble We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, establish this Constitution...
New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.
New Jersey 1844, Preamble We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
New Mexico 1911, Preamble We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty..
New York 1846, Preamble We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.
North Carolina 1868, Preamble We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those...
North Dakota 1889, Preamble We , the people of North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain..
Ohio 1852, Preamble We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common..
Oklahoma 1907, Preamble Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty, establish this
Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I Sect. II All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance....
Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing...
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
South Dakota 1889, Preamble We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties
Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...
Texas 1845, Preamble We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.
Utah 1896, Preamble Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.
Vermont 1777, Preamble Whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man .
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other
Washington 1889, Preamble We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution
West Virginia 1872, Preamble Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ..
Wisconsin 1848, Preamble We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility...
Wyoming 1890, Preamble We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties, establish this Constitution..

After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that maybe the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong! If you found this to be 'food for thought' copy and send to as many as you think will be enlightened as I hope you were.

(Please note that at no time is anyone told that they MUST worship God.)

'Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.' - William Penn
Why do the vast majority of us let a small minority of people in the United States dictate what the majority wants???

BLESSED IS THE NATION WHOSE GOD IS THE LORD ... PSALM 33:12
GOD BLESS AMERICA !!!
AND

GOD FORGIVE AMERICA FOR IT'S POLITICALLY CORRECT ZEALOTS!!!

[GMpilot]

I hadn't read that first link. I shall do so, and get back to you.

I have read the second link, obviously, since I commented in it. Frank told you, I'll remind you, and the link itself will tell you: the site is Christ Church, not Christ's Church.
If you don't like the name, you may take it up with them, but I don't think you'll come up with an argument they haven't heard before. It's had that name for 315 years. Don't expect them to change it just for you.
The fact that Franklin is buried there does not mean he was a Christian. He had religious principles, but he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, as I've pointed out. If someone does not believe that Jesus was the son of God, that someone, by definition, cannot be Christian.
Franklin was, however, an honored citizen, an internationally-known inventor, diplomat, and author. That was enough to qualify him for interment at one of the most renowned churches in Philadelphia. I might also add that at the time of Franklin's death (1790), Philadelphia was the national capital. What better place to bury him?

Anyway, my call was to examine those fifty-seven questions you posted months ago, not the “Founders” thread.

Take your time. I'm only an infidel anyway, and you clearly have more important matters on your plate right now.
When you're ready, I'll still be here...and your writing skills will be well-honed from answering that other fellow.

[GMpilot]

Sothenes: Would you be suprised if George Washington used the words "that dumb deist"? Those are fighting words today. You couldn't say it today. They went through the Apostle's Creed line by line because they were fighting the Church of England at that time.

I don't think those would be fighting words today, because most Americans have no idea what a Deist is.
The late Anthony Flew, a lifelong and outspoken unbeliever, had some sort of epiphany in 2004, and spent the last years of his life as a deist. In Christian circles, Flew's change of heart was declared a triumph for God, until they realized he still didn't believe in that God.
Teddy Roosevelt once referred to Thomas Paine as a “filthy little atheist”, although he was not; Paine, in his famous book The Age of Reason, made that clear on the very first page: ”I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.” Roosevelt's comment could still be made today, and no one (outside of perhaps the ACLU) would object.

quoted from somewhere by Sothenes

I don't have time or desire for debate but I don't know if I posted this already. Perhaps you could explain it.

No, I don't think you've posted this before. What about it needs explaining?
All of the States acknowledge the existence of a God/Supreme Being. I have no problem with this. But if one HAS to do that simply to get along in society, that's just wrong.

quoted from somewhere by Sothenes

After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that maybe the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong! If you found this to be 'food for thought' copy and send to as many as you think will be enlightened as I hope you were.

(Please note that at no time is anyone told that they MUST worship God.)

No, no one is told that they MUST worship God.
But here's what lies in store for you if you don't:

Arkansas: No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.

Maryland: That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God;...

Massachusetts: Whoever wilfully blasphemes the holy name of God by denying, cursing or contumeliously reproaching God, his creation, government or final judging of the world, or by cursing or contumeliously reproaching Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost, or by cursing or contumeliously reproaching or exposing to contempt and ridicule, the holy word of God contained in the holy scriptures shall be punished by imprisonment in jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars, and may also be bound to good behavior.

So...take the Lord's name in vain, or criticize religion, and it can get you up to a year in the slammer. Expressing one's own opinions on religious matters is a dangerous thing to do in the Bay State.
Mr. Burns of The Simpsons had it right: “Harassment and oppression are a small price to pay to live in the land of the free.”

Mississippi: No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state.

North Carolina: The following persons shall be disqualified for office:
First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.

Pennsylvania: No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.

South Carolina: No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.

This one actually was challenged in court (1993). It took four years, but was finally ruled to be unconstitutional; it involved a man who was rejected from becoming a notary public. Over 33,000 permits were issued by the state that year, but his was the only one to be refused. Guess why.

Tennessee: No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.

Texas: No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

These states have codified into law penalties or restrictions involving matters of opinion on religion.
When the priestly scandals became public in Boston in '02, there was a great deal of religious criticism in its wake, but AFAIK, no one got fined or thrown into jail under Massachusetts law. Certainly a child molester in clerical garb qualifies as 'exposing to contempt and ridicule the holy word of God'! Nevertheless, it's still on the books in six states—if you don't believe in [a] god, you cannot hold public office.
Fortunately, the 'out-of-control federal courts', specifically the SCOTUS, struck down those laws (Torkaso v. Watkins, 1961).
It goes further than this: In Vermont, according to DumbLaws.com, it is illegal to deny the existence of God. (I'm still trying to confirm that, though.) How do the police find out?

In the late 19th century, Robert Ingersoll was able to say “In most of the States of this Union I could not give testimony. Should a man be murdered before my eyes I could not tell a jury who did it." This was because people did not believe that someone who doubted God could be trusted to tell the truth in court.
Ingersoll had something to say about that, too: “Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human nature that it does not believe a man can tell the truth unless frightened by a belief in God. No lower opinion of the human race has ever been expressed.”

What sort of explanation were you looking for, Sothenes?

All fifty of our States mention a God/Supreme Being. But in some of those States, that Being is a Baptist; in some of them, a Methodist; in several of them, a Catholic; in at least two, a Mormon. As a rule, they don't get on all that well. Talking about James Madison, I referenced him witnessing Baptists jailed by Anglicans in his native Virginia—just for having a difference of religious opinion. One would think that if they all worshiped the same Christian God (not Judeo-Christian God), there would have been greater harmony. It didn't happen. It hasn't happened. It will not happen.

This seems like a good time to repeat Madison's words:

“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?”--A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785

See you when you return!

[Sothenes]

Originally Posted by GMpilot

Take your time. I'm only an infidel anyway, and you clearly have more important matters on your plate right now.
When you're ready, I'll still be here...and your writing skills will be well-honed from answering that other fellow.

I'm a father with a child that wants my constant attention.

If I did continue in conversation it wouldn't constitute proof. If it did constitute proof in one area, it wouldn't constitute proof in other areas that meant anything to you.

Faith comes from hearing and believing the gospel. Every other approach may as well be either Biblical or emergent but it doesn't mean you will believe.

I could put out a mass appeal saying,"Are you lonely? The answer is to accept the gospel." And if people came forward, they would have come forward because they were lonely and not because of the gospel and we could have heathens believing they were Christians because they answered a question on loneliness and not because of a response to faith.

This is basically why my being here will never solve anything towards improving you because evangelism without God's help in the matter is pretty much an impossible endevour. It is not because I care or don't care but it is because of my time, my heart not being in it and what I partly see as being the inevitable.

http://www.truthforlife.org/broadcas...ty-god-part-b/

[Sothenes]

Originally Posted by GMpilot

Take your time. I'm only an infidel anyway, and you clearly have more important matters on your plate right now.
When you're ready, I'll still be here...and your writing skills will be well-honed from answering that other fellow.

Duty Calls

[GMpilot]

Did you think to overwhelm me with the weight of all those state Constitutions declaring that God is sovereign? This is not a “Christian nation”. It is a nation of (mostly) Christians, a fact supported not only by law, but by tradition. If you cannot tell the difference, you shouldn't be making the argument. How can you acknowledge an Absolute Ruler over the world, and in the same breath boast that you're a citizen of a nation where the people rule?

Sothenes: I'm a father with a child that wants my constant attention.

Then by all means, give it to him/her. You will do more good there than any God-belief can.

If I did continue in conversation it wouldn't constitute proof. If it did constitute proof in one area, it wouldn't constitute proof in other areas that meant anything to you.

Proof is for mathematics and whiskey. We have been talking about a supposedly existent super-being, who reportedly has some 'plan' for the lesser beings he created (us), which will lead to peace and bliss for all...but most of the rest of the world listens to other super-beings, who have their own 'plans'. These plans seem to consist of having the lesser beings convert or kill each other, which 'our' super-being also takes part in. Have I got it right so far?

Faith comes from hearing and believing the gospel. Every other approach may as well be either Biblical or emergent but it doesn't mean you will believe.

The terms 'biblical' or 'emergent' have meaning only to Christians—and not all of them. To a devout Hindu, those terms would be meaningless.

I could put out a mass appeal saying,"Are you lonely? The answer is to accept the gospel." And if people came forward, they would have come forward because they were lonely and not because of the gospel and we could have heathens believing they were Christians because they answered a question on loneliness and not because of a response to faith.

Faith is the willingness to believe what your common sense tells you is not true. The Argument from Loneliness is a lousy reason to accept the gospel, when a loving partner, or even a loving puppy, will do the job better.

This is basically why my being here will never solve anything towards improving you because evangelism without God's help in the matter is pretty much an impossible endevour. It is not because I care or don't care but it is because of my time, my heart not being in it and what I partly see as being the inevitable.

Oh? I thought your purpose in being here was to spread the gospel, not to improve me! Posting here is preaching to the choir, isn't it? After all, those who come here are Christians like yourself; I'm just the resident Dissenting Opinion. A “devil's advocate”, if you will...although I don't believe in his existence either.
If your heart's not in it, don't do it. That's pretty much how I gave up on religion in the first place.

”Death is lighter than a feather, but duty is heavier than a mountain.”
--Japanese proverb